Judge not lest ye be judged
Although I have several friends who claim to have all of the answers concerning religion I, my friend, do not. (gasp) I was raised by a very liberal southern Baptist (single) mother. I know the Bible pretty well. I believe in good and evil. I believe in people, and yes- I believe in God. That does not make me less smart or more gullible. I am open-minded. I feel those who claim to be accepting of others, yet who look down upon believers are not open-minded. (at all) I also feel this incredible burden of how much exposure my children should have. I want them to know the Bible. It is a major part of our (moi et Mark) families' histories. It's a major part of our culture. When children read literature, I want them to understand Biblical archetypes and imagery. The Old Man in the Sea without symbolism is just an old dude in the sea. Most importantly, I want them to appreciate the moral standards upon which most religions are based; do unto others, reap what you sew, etc. (without the guilt- aye there's the rub)
Personally, I enjoy the comfort and tradition of attending church. No, we don't expose them to Temples or a Synagogues. That's not what we believe. Most Jews and Buddhists don't hit all the Protestant and Catholic churches, either. People find what they are comfortable with. I know I'll never have all of the answers. For me, it's about learning. Seeking knowledge. Instilling compassion and discernment in my children through example. (whether it be through biblical stories or through our actions)
Sending my kids to church once a week serves purposes beyond religion. It is a time for them to see friends, play games, and get out of the house. What I don't understand is how and why people judge a parent's decision simply because they themselves don't like church? The church experience doesn't have to be negative. Occasionally, we attend the Presbyterian church in town. The people are very kind, the building is beautiful, and their music is very calming. It's similar to the feeling I get when I practice yoga and meditate.
Admittedly, I have problems with organized religion. Nevertheless, to say that we should avoid it completely is unfair and biased.
Peace be with you.
~g
posted by lua at 18:38
19 Comments:
I love church debates.
Che abbiamo bisogno di qui se per tutti tentare ed ascoltare l'un l'altro. Nessuno giudica o dice che quella chiesa ha torto. Siamo giusti dichiarando che la chiesa può essere dannosa perché cristiani sono i haters di ebrei di amare repubblicani.
this is not a church debate. it is a parenting debate. you basically conceeded my whole point. there are basic beliefs in alomost all major religions. we chose to teach those lessons in a way we are most comfortable with. i'm forcing nothing. and yes, i am a good mother. passing on a standard of morals and a belief system isn't giving them crack. i'm not going to debate christianity. although you clearly want that. i just get annoyed when people think they can raise my children better than I.
I wish I would have been exposed to christianity they way you and Mark are going about it... I can't help to think that they will have plenty of oppurtunity to explore other beliefs as well, living in the atmosphere you and Mark provide for them.
I'm still scarred by all the Ren and Stimpy episodes I missed on Sunday mornings!
I don't think anyone is trying to say they could raise your children better then you. I just know what church has done in my life and I wish my parents wouldn't have taken me. I wish they had given me more knowledge about everything. I was taught to believe the bible was real. I was made to feel bad about myself from the church if I questioned anything. I was told this is what you believe and it's because god said so and stop making a fuss, and if you do you're against god and he will reign his fire down on you. I don't believe it's a good thing to have children think about heaven and hell. I was told at a very very very young age...like five years old that if I didn't believe in god I was gonna burn in hell. No kid should have to even think about that nonsense. I was made to feel guilt about my body about my thoughts. I remember no one truly being honest about themselves. They would just put on their Sunday best and pretend to be these good little christians. It was all a lie. Everyone was lying and if you decided hey, I'm not gonna lie you were immediately shunned. When I would be honest and tell people I was confused or go to an adult and ask them questions I was told to pray for my sins. Being a kid in the church was difficult. I always felt like I was doing something wrong...like I was wrong.
Now I did love love love the friends I made and I have some amazing memories of the times I had with the youth group. Even tho most of them are dead now...freak accidents. Maybe they questioned their faith. hmmmmm. I better watch out. I go back now and see them and we laugh, and we also talk about how fucked up everything was...like what a load of shit we were served and how it's been damn hard trying to overcome some of the stress and impressions that were laid upon us. I still have a hard time with questioning god. I feel guilt and saddness that I know wouldn't be there had I just waited and sought out church later when I became curious.
I don't ever want you to think I think you're doing it wrong. I just have a hard time when I see kids in church. I know not everyone's situation will be or is like mine. One thing different in your household is how you communicate with your kids and I know my parents never did this with me. I find out now my mom really never believed anything the church was feeding her...she just wanted to sing in the choir. Gee thanks Ma!
I love ya honey. And everyone does it different and everyone has the right too. No one is right or wrong. I hope we can all agree to that. Now I have a strange feeling I'm about to get bitch slapped. YEEE HAW!
clearly, the comments that were made were based on other people's experiences. i realized that early on- that it wasn't at all about me. just know that when you have children, i will never tell you what is best for them or how you should guide them in spiritual matters. your feelings are valid. i can relate, somewhat. your memories tainted, but personally- my experience was not the same. i'm not blaming god or a church for an unhappy childhood. my mom always anwered our questions and encouraged us to search for answers. she explained how sometimes family and sacrifice came before church, but not god. she told us how lucky we were and taught us respect and gratitude. she and my grandparents showed us to care for our planet and our fellow man. these are all biblical lessons. some of these were learned through sunday school lessons, but most through their life example.
You were lucky to have a family that allowed you to talk about your feelings. Very cool.
Eh...but, I do find blaming god and the church is sooooo much more fun!
Will someone paraphrase these comments so i won't have to read all of that? Are there cliff notes?
i can't stand not knowing which one i'm talking to. i thought that was vosse, but we didn't have spirited debates in college. i was enjoing the debate, actually. it seemed dia wasn't so, i quit (as she was asking my husband for help? i'm sorry.) i didn't want to hurt any feelings.actually, it was one of you that said WTF? on one of my posts about sending my kids to church. I never asked for an opinion or guidance on that matter. i think that you all let your emotions and past experience with religion guide your comments on what sarah and i should do with our children. it's impossible as a mother to separate what i believe and how i raise my children. of course they are exposed to other religions, but i'm not dragging then to various places in a search for god. yes, you may talk to my kids about your religious views, or lack thereof- just remeber they are kids. why am i the one who needs to chill? everytime we have a spirited discussion, i am accused of getting upset. not fair. i'm as cool as a cumcumber. as far as the bible goes- it's what i know. it has amazing stories. we also have a koran. you have read too much into what i'm saying if you think i feel that beacause i believe in god and celebrate christmas, then i think i'm right and y'all are wrong. the bible is my source for a lot of values and moral standards. much like a jew looks to the torrah or a buddhasits to their bible. liam is singing "dradle dradle dradle' as i write. by putting god first,(which i admit i'm not good at) to me means several things.it's a way for me to prioritize, how my decisions are made, etc..1. being at peace with yourself. more on that - but not here 2.taking care of your family. meeting their needs. for me- the most important relationship is with my husband. that is based on my biblical upbringing. so far, it works.3.serving others (living like christ or buddha- or mohammed, if you want) truly taking care of those in need. loving the unlovely. not judging people. and finally, 4. taking care of our earth. any questions? alright- i'm done. i need to lay down.that hurt my head.
No, I wasn't taking it personally...I thought you were taking all of this way too seriously...I wanted Mark to come and lighten the mood.
We're cool baby.
i do get passionate when my kids are involved. you will understand one day. i can't wait. kids and religion. if we could only discuss politics, too- then it would be complete.
it's ok mark, i'll explain later.
Wow! Do I have to miss school to keep up with you people? Don't you have jobs? Sorry if I sounded too offended earlier, maybe I got a little worked up. I would like to say, in an unoffended way, that I do have plans to move my kids out of this state after I finish school, but not to run away from bible thumpers. I'm going to move because I want the experience of living in a different way, and I want that for my kids. (And because molecular biology is not exactly booming in Oklahoma) There are a lot of good people here and it is possible to grow up in greencountry without a closed mind. I cite myself, Gretchen, and Dia as examples. Having informed you of that, let me ask, do you really think that getting all the liberals out of the bible belt is a solution to bigotry? Without people like me, who will stand up and speak out when they see or hear discrimination in all its many forms? Progress has been made since my grandfather was placed in an indian boarding school by 'good god-fearing' Okies who wanted to pound the heathen out of him, but should we be satisfied and keep the status quo as it is? Or worse, let it regress? When I go to the grocery store with my multiracial children I sometimes get sneers from white and black women. I can see the thought running through their head's that my husband/boyfriend/baby-daddy is black and I can see that they dissaprove. It doesn't matter to me that they are completely off base and I'm not the biological mother. It matters to me that they should care at all whether my kids parents are of the same race. It matters to me most that soon, my kids might be aware of dirty looks they sometimes get. But I don't think that means I should hide in some city full of people who think exactly the way I do, sitting around drinking tea and preaching to the choir. I'd prefer that my kids see me stand up and sweetly say 'beautiful aren't they?' in the face of those dirty looks. The confrontations I've had with people like this inevitably end with the other woman embarrassed, looking at her feet, or quickly agreeing that yes, my kids are beautiful. My kids know that I'm proud of who they are, and those women will think before they act the next time. I don't think that we should leave the bible belt to the bible bangers and bigots- I think we should challenge their territory.
I have more that I could say, but I'd better step off of my soapbox before I trip.
Oh yeah, Vosse- thanks. I hope we get to meet you too.
-S
I think are politics are pretty much the same...so we would be preaching to the choir.
I do like what you state Sarah about leaving oklahoma and staying and changing it. It's a very good point. I know I left because I didn't care about changing it. I was so sick of not feeling comfortable and knew that there was a place where I could be that I fit in. I was tired of constantly having to defend being a democrat...being a vegetarian...believing in gay rights...I was so sick of every time I turned around I had to deal with someone else's bullshit. I would always state...I don't ask you your beliefs or make you defend them...I ask the same of you.
I know by living in SF I do live in bubble and I discuss that with a lot of people who live here. We all know and I don't take it for granted. I remember what it was like. I say everyone live out here and fuck the rest! If they wanna stay god be with them. Come join the bubble...it's soooo nice. It's so nice to be surrounded by like minded people. It's sooooo nice not having to defend my actions to those prying eyes. No one would think twice about your children being of a different race here.
Let the bigots stay there!!! Come on over the water is soooo fine!
Don't worry- I'll make it there at some point. Just gotta graduate first.
He made her write a lot of dirty words
mail it to the plumber
she threw away the shoes
had to work her way home
A bright fella but you see
I burned for 8 years
So no deal
How does it feel
To be a complete for seven years
then on the eighth I rested
That's your train of thought
My skills can't be bought
I've seen the worst
said patty hearst
but the shoes she wore
were not so haute
I judge you listen
Bow your heads and stay in the kitchen.
Yes, Sarah, I also get what you are saying and , while one should hope and pray the bible belt is eventually a region restored to sanity ( was there ever sanity ? probably have to go all the way back to the days before humans came there), while that's an honorable brave stance, why should you and your kids stare them down when there are places you and your kids seen together would be nothing special.
I see nothing wrong in good people allowing themselvs to live in area where neighbors are more open minded, communities are more interesting, - that is not the same thing as "running away."
And it's probably provable that if one raises children in the most tolerant available environment they will enjoy the benefits of those good biblical mainstays about golden ruling and loving others and that goes for the single race families as well.
It's also a good idea at some point to move away from one's parents being close by even if they are good baby sitters... good for all concerned. even if they follow you in which case, you tried your best.
one more thing about people moving away from o say the bible belt.
Optimum best might be if there were more not les shifts.. good if there were more of an influx of more enlightened people from elsewhere INTO bible belt (because of jobs?)
and it's just as valid a contribution to good communities from enlightened people FROM the bible belt to move INTO
more sophisticated urbane setting so that the people there get infusions of the experoences of cool okies... we don't want these city folks to start getting smug after all.
Dia has had quite an impact, for instance, on the Bay Area.
And vice versa - including regular impacts on her tush.
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